Strengthening Leadership, Mental Health, and Decision-Making Through Personalized Interactive Training

There’s a Lesson in Here Somewhere Podcast
Episode 13 Transcript
Guest: Sharon Sloane, Co-founder and CEO of WILL Interactive     

There’s a Lesson in Here Somewhere is a podcast hosted by Jamie Serino that features exceptional people that have compelling stories to tell. Whether it’s a unique perspective, an act of kindness, an inspirational achievement, a hardship overcome, or bearing witness to a captivating event, these are stories that must be heard, and from which we can draw important lessons. 

What if your leadership, mental health, or corporate trainings could be as engaging as a blockbuster movie or your favorite Netflix show? Sharon Sloane, CEO and co-founder of WILL Interactive, joins us to reveal how organizational learning is being transformed through interactive storytelling. Using a powerful blend of narrative and gaming techniques, and artfully incorporating an AI learning coach, Willow, Sharon and WILL Interactive help companies, the military, and other organizations tackle issues like social responsibility, diversity, leadership, and mental health. In this episode, Sharon also shares insights into the neuroscience of learning and decision-making, and the best ways to create engagement and emotionally resonant learning experiences.

We explore the intricacies of leadership decisions where the lines between right and wrong blur. With interactive guidance, participants receive real-time feedback on their choices, revealing the broader impact of their actions. In addition, we connect the dots between these learning experiences and broader organizational challenges, such as employee morale and retention, team performance and communication, and emotional wellbeing.

Beyond corporate and organizational growth, we delve into the critical role of mental health in professional settings. Sharon also discusses WILL’s work in supporting corporate cultures, addressing critical issues like the prevention of sexual harassment and abusive conduct, as well as workplace violence. Join us as we underscore the need for comprehensive support systems that promote genuine resilience, and the vital role of communication and listening skills in enhancing organizational culture. This episode is a testament to how innovative training can empower employees, transform cultures, and ultimately drive harmony and success.

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You can learn more about WILL Interactive here: https://willinteractive.com/

Intro

Welcome to There's a Lesson in Here Somewhere, conversations with interesting people with fascinating stories to tell and from which we can draw important lessons. Here are your hosts, Jamie Serino and Peter Carucci.

Jamie Serino

00:18

Hello and welcome to. There's a Lesson in here Somewhere. I'm Jamie Serino.

Peter Carucci

00:23

And I'm Peter Carucci.

Jamie Serino

00:25

and we're here today with Sharon Sloane, the co-founder and CEO of WILL Interactive, which is the leading provider of corporate learning experiences. And when I say that, it is a good definition for them. But you absolutely have to see their learning videos. They're like choose your own adventure books. They're interactive movies. They stop you, make a choice and then it goes in a certain direction and you're learning all along those decision points. They're also really cool. They're not cheesy. I think we've become so accustomed. The bar is pretty low. I don't want to insult any other corporate learning video providers, but the bar is pretty low. I think they tend to be cheesy. They tend to be so obvious, like what you're supposed to do, what you're not supposed to do. It's almost insulting to the watcher. And then no one really wants to do it because like, oh, this again. But these videos are actually really interesting, well-produced, well-made. You sort of want to see what's going to happen next and you're the one in charge of it. It's really really amazing.

01:31

I had the opportunity to work with Sharon years ago. I've known her and WILL for about 18 years now. I've had a chance to do some of the videos. Really really impressive stuff and just very interesting. So we're going to talk about those. We're also going to talk about education. We're going to talk about how we learn. We're going to talk a little bit about mental health. We're going to talk about the different things that Sharon helps corporations address, like inclusion and other corporate social responsibility elements. There's a ton of stuff in here and I'm so excited to be speaking with Sharon. Sharon, welcome.

Sharon Sloane

02:08

Thank you. Thank you, Jamie. Lovely to be here. I really appreciate the opportunity to chat with you and your audience. Hi, Peter.

Jamie Serino

02:18

And if you could maybe do a more complete, more full introduction for yourself and WILL, that would be great.

Sharon Sloane

02:31

Okay, well, I'll give you a little bit of background.

02:32

We really started out answering the question what does it take to go beyond traditional education or training to engage people at a level that affects their behavior in a positive way?

02:43

And the reason that this happened is that I'd spent a lot of time in education, training and well-intentioned people, lots of time and money spent on training that really didn't translate to anyone doing anything any differently in the workplace, and so we said what could we come up with, what could we invent that would accomplish this, with the power of story, which, since the beginning of mankind, is how people pass messages down and engage other people, and the appeal of a great movie. We remember a scene we saw in a movie 10 years ago we forgot what we ate for breakfast yesterday, and then gaming, the idea that people really want to win, and we wanted an interactive experience, and so we came up with this idea of the interactive movie, which originally became patented as an interactive behavior modification system. You'll chuckle at this, jamie. You may remember this. There were actually people back then who said to us like, what are you guys doing?

04:04

No one will ever play video on a computer right, so funny and here we are, of course, using it on our phones and all of this great stuff. And, yeah, now introducing we'll talk about this a little bit later, I'm sure introducing ai into this and and all kinds of things but it's been interesting. We've gotten to work with some really amazing people the military, leading healthcare organizations, corporate giants but at the end of the day, people are people and it's all about really meeting them where they are and caring. You know, I always say um, connect first, educate second yeah, and I think that, yeah, your videos do that.

Jamie Serino

04:52

They, they draw you right in and and there is this connection and there is this yeah, you, you are meeting them where they are, you're. You're not insulting anyone's intelligence or anything. So maybe we could start with that neuroscience of learning and how you have that as a root and you have the psychology background and everything. Maybe we could start there.

Sharon Sloane

05:16

Okay, sure, so we human beings are pretty complex creatures, but if we want to just get our handle around it a little bit, we have three domains in our brains. So one is the psychomotor domain, that's the physical stuff how fast can you run, how high can you jump? We don't really do much in that area. And the next one is sort of the cognitive domain knowledge, skills, information, facts. That's where a lot of education, training, focuses and, quite frankly, too much focus there, and that's why it doesn't work.

05:56

And then there's this affective domain, which is sort of the emotional side of us our belief systems, all our previous experiences, our feelings, kind of what makes each of us who we are, and we call them perceptual filters. It's almost like we all have this invisible pair of glasses that we wear and that's how we see the world. And so if we can meet people at the intersection of that cognitive domain, give them good knowledge, information and skills, and understand the affective domain, how they're going to take it in, there's kind of a sweet spot in the brain and that's where we really make decisions. That's the sticky point. That's where learning needs to focus.

Jamie Serino

06:43

Yeah, that's where learning needs to focus. Yeah, so people will take in, like the, the sort of hard information, combine that with their emotions, with how they feel right, and all of that's happening unevenly right, does you know? And so you're. So can you tell me a little bit more about how you do that, how you get them to combine that and how you get them to interact and help with that decision making and learning?

Sharon Sloane

07:08

Sure, well, first of all, all of our interactive movies, all of our programs are based on actual experiences.

07:16

We do a lot of research focus groups, interviews, we walk the halls in organizations, we talk with people, and that's why it's not phony or made up or goofy, looking like nobody would ever say that or do that around here, because somebody did do that, they did say that around here or at least in a place that's similar to your workplace. So that's the first thing. And then the second thing is that we take that and of course we fictionalize it and dramatize it in the movies, but we put that into a context, into a story film, it with very high quality, hollywood quality movies, and then all of the computer technology, all the software. As you make decisions, it's changing what's happening in that movie based on your choices. So you and I might have completely different experience with the same product. If we find someone who needs some remediation, they'll get that in a very positive way, whereas someone else who doesn't need that won't ever even see that sequence of videos or text.

Jamie Serino

08:30

Yeah, that's cool.

Peter Carucci

08:32

It really is a lot like choose your own adventure kind of mindset You're choosing and I think it's very important that the act of that person engaging the material through choice also gives them a buy-in and increases the engagement for that person. Watching that video I can see that very powerful.

Sharon Sloane

08:55

Absolutely. It's personalized, yet it's never so in your face that people feel defensive. See, that's the other thing. It's got to be real enough that people identify, but not so personal that anything ever comes across as an attack or blaming or accusing people, because then your defenses go up and their learning opportunity is pretty much lost. So it resembles your world enough that it draws you in, but it's not saying, well, jamie did this or Peter did that.

Jamie Serino

09:31

Yeah.

Peter Carucci

09:33

I have a really strange question to ask you, but, given everything I've seen in my years in pedagogy education, how do you guys gauge if, basically I'm wondering is there someone who, even watching these videos, still has kind of a fixed mindset and still refuses to buy in? Does that ever happen? And and um, through the pathway that they select through the videos? How is that handled at every turn? Or is it something you guys think about when you craft each film and each interactive video? Is it, hmm, you know, like how do you handle someone who's just so stubborn, perhaps for lack of a better term?

Sharon Sloane

10:16

That's a great question, a great question. So here's the thing we are descriptive but not prescriptive. In other words, we're going to immerse you in a situation and you're going to make the choices and see the outcomes of those choices, but we're never going to say, oh, you're a bad person because you did this or you're not smart because you did that. A bad person because you did this or you're not smart because you did that. What we do are two things that are very powerful in influencing behavior. One is you get to walk in someone else's shoes. So let's say that you're someone that has very strong opinions on whatever it is diversity and inclusion, workplace violence, sexual harassment, cybersecurity whatever it is diversity and inclusion, workplace violence, sexual harassment, cybersecurity whatever it is you have those fixed opinions, and so we're never going to say you're wrong, but we're going to allow you to play things out and see where they go, and if you end up in a place that's not where you want to be, you have the opportunity to go back and try different choices and see if you end up in a better place where you want to be. The other thing it does is it gives people the opportunity to see themselves as others see them and I actually think all of us could use more of that beyond our indirect movies.

11:51

But in life, and you know, it's so hard to really understand how you're coming across to someone else. Think that you're listening, you think that you come across with a certain persona, but how are you being received? How are you really being heard? Well, you can play things from the opposite perspective. So let's take, for example and this may resonate we did a program around helping veterans reintegrate into the civilian workplace and one of the portions of the program is you play it from the veteran's perspective, who has just left the military, and the hiring manager's perspective, who has never had any experience with the military, and you can actually be both of those people and see it from both of those perspectives. There are a lot of aha moments that come from that, because I think a lot of the friction and misunderstanding is most people are not evil, they're not trying to do bad things. They just really don't understand how they're being perceived or how they're coming across.

Jamie Serino

13:07

Yeah, I think that's a really powerful thing there and you said, even just in life, if we all you know were to be shown that, and I think, like a lot of managers sometimes have a hard time when they get that you know sort of report back you know from okay, this is what my team thinks, and sometimes it's good and sometimes there might be negative feedback in there. And so do you work with companies on that sort of team interaction and how can we be more productive? How can we get along better? Do you do any kind of work with companies on that?

Sharon Sloane

13:45

A lot of our programs involve teamwork and leadership and one of the best things that happens is that well, I don't know, I guess we still have water coolers, but we'll call it water cooler conversation, even if it's on Zoom is that people start out and they're thinking, okay, I got to take this annual sexual harassment training again, I'll just do something else and click through it, and then all of a sudden they're engaged. That's great, but the bigger part of it is when they finish they start to talk to other colleagues. Did you see the training? Yeah, I did. You know, that guy really looked like Joe. I mean, he didn't look like him, kind of acted like him, and I didn't realize. Yeah, that kind of stuff kind of does go around here and all of a sudden we get what we call a dose-response relationship. But it's messaging that gets reinforced because people identify and they want to discuss it.

14:49

This is a little bit humorous, but we had one large tech company and they were looking at our sexual harassment training and they thought they were going to use something else.

15:01

And the chief learning officer didn't want to use the something else because it was so boring and she was having a hard time getting. You know, the general counsel to open up and maybe look at something quite different. And the general counsel did look at it and she went, oh my goodness, like this is. And she went home and she insisted that her husband play it that night and he said, oh my goodness, you know, he was at work, of course, for a different company and they ended up working with us for years and became huge fans. But yeah, I mean, you know, like a saying goes, we all put our pants on one leg at a time. We just really have to be human because we're so much more alike than different and I know in this highly polarized world it's hard sometimes to think like that. But if you could just lower people's defenses and we can just have conversations, there's a tremendous amount of learning that will take place.

Jamie Serino

16:11

Yeah, and then another thing I really appreciated about your videos was, you know, for for certain ones, for certain ones, there definitely is like this is right and this is wrong, especially when it comes to things like sexual harassment. But then in some of your leadership training I took one that was meant for the military and you presented issues that there was no right or wrong answer and I actually loved playing the scenarios and then actually going back to see, well, what would have happened if I would have decided something else. And it was one decision in particular. I remember where I was like the platoon leader and we're getting ready to deploy and all of like the chemical suits came in and there was a really tall person in the platoon and the biggest size didn't fit him properly. He just barely fit in and it was do you send him or do you make him stay home?

17:04

And sending him is the risk if you have to put these chemical suits on. Keeping him home was a big damage to the morale because also, he was a leader in the organization, right, and a key member. So there's no, you know. I mean you could say there is a right or wrong, there's a danger issue there, can't send him, but that's going to cause, like you know, some negative effect. Sending him will have negative effect. So you know, it's really interesting these sort of like you know, damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of decisions, or, uh, you know the, the, the idea that, um, you know there's no right or wrong answer.

Sharon Sloane

17:52

So I, I, I love that and I and you know, hearing you say that they are based on real situations makes it like more powerful. Those are the types of decisions that leaders have to face around that deployment and welcome to leadership. Right, the easy stuff is the easy stuff, but what do you do when it really is complex? There's no right or wrong, or there are so many shades of gray and also second and third order effects, and I think that's another place where our training is really strong, because it's not just what you do in that moment. But what are the ripple effects of?

Jamie Serino

18:27

that the ripple effects yep.

Sharon Sloane

18:29

This door opens, this door closes Right Down the road. There's long-term consequences as well as the immediate consequences of the choices that you make. Yeah, we see a lot of this in our bystander roles, whether it's workplace violence or sexual harassment, or diversity and inclusion. We think a lot about the perpetrator, if you like that word, or the victim, if you like that word. But what about the bystander? Do I intervene? Do I put myself at risk? If I intervene, could there be negative consequences for me?

19:08

And one of the ways that we've just really taken that to the next level is through our new AI learning coach. Her name is Willow and she is embedded in our programs and you can actually talk with her when you're asked to make those decisions. So you're texting her just like you would text a friend or anyone else, and you say to her she asks you a question, what do you want to do and you don't know, and you, instead of having to make a response, you explain to willow what you're thinking or why you're concerned or why you're having trouble making the choice, and she will interact with you and coach you very conversational, very personable, at scale, in real time. We're very excited about this because this is the holy grail of education individualized instruction at scale.

20:11

And it's been launched, so we're excited to see where it goes.

Peter Carucci

20:32

I'm really fascinated by the I said this before but also the level of engagement that Will seems to be able to create in the participant. Are you familiar with Charlotte?

Sharon Sloane

20:37

Danielson's work in education and pedagogy Not too much.

Peter Carucci

20:39

So domain three for her is student engagement, or how well does someone engage in material and taking ownership or agency, and ownership over the situational awareness as well as the interactive awareness is very powerful. I mean now I have a strange question. When these are done so individualized maybe it's because I'm not as familiar as Jamie is do you do these in full group settings and allow groups to decide what the next situation will be together, or is it strictly more individualized by person? Do you know what I mean by that question?

Sharon Sloane

21:24

I know exactly and what do the results?

Peter Carucci

21:26

of the group have to work together.

Sharon Sloane

21:28

The answer is yes, yes and yes. So let me explain that All of the programs are built to be used asynchronously in real time, because we have organizations with thousands of employees all over the world. Those are individual, asynchronous learners. The programs are also built and they come with a facilitator guide to be facilitated by an instructor or whomever it is and maybe it's a human resource executive or whoever to have the group discuss all of those choices. That can be either live people in an auditorium or conference room, or it can be over Zoom or a virtual platform where you really want the team to discuss it.

22:18

Now what happens oftentimes and this is by no means all the time, but we give all of these different options to all of our customers so that they can use the program with different audiences in different ways.

22:34

So sometimes what will happen is the senior executives will do it as a group and then maybe others in the organization. Individual contributors might do it asynchronously through the learning management system on their own or if people are in different time zones. But the other piece of this is that all of this data is collected. Now you can collect it asynchronously and anonymously, so we won't know that Peter made this choice, or Jamie or Sharon made this choice, but you do see the aggregate. So let's say that, whether you've done it in a group session or individually, that 67% of your people make less than an optimum choice in a situation. Well, now that gives the organization some real data as to what they might want to look at for future training or other interventions, other initiatives, whereas 98% of your people, when confronted with this situation, all make the optimum choice. Well, why spend more time training on that?

Jamie Serino

23:45

the optimum choice. Well, why spend more time training on that? Yeah, that's really powerful. And so when you think about these large organizations trying to identify problems, right, so why do we have so much trouble with a product launch or why do we have trouble with employee retention, you know, and trying to get to the root of that employee retention, you know, and trying to get to the root of that, can you talk a little bit about maybe where you've helped a company maybe get to the root of a problem through some of the trainings and some?

Sharon Sloane

24:14

of that data that they got? Yeah, absolutely so. Oftentimes, as I said, once this data is collected, you'll hear from, let's say, a chief human resource officer might be someone who would be really interested in this in a large organization. Ooh, I didn't know that we had a problem with fill in the blank. It seemed like it was okay, but it also doesn't seem okay. Let me start talking with the managers in that department, or let me bring the C-suite together, because we might be losing productivity here If we can't get this resolved and nobody's really coming forward. What else is going on? Right, so it's something that they can take internally.

25:12

The other thing is, um, avoiding lawsuits yeah some of these things, like around sexual harassment and I'm sure you know you see the same thing in the news, I do these are multi-million dollar lawsuits. They tarnish the brand brand. It becomes more difficult to recruit the best talent. So there's a lot of benefit in having the information. And the other part of it is the upfront research. We have a tool now called a culture diagnostic tool, and we developed it kind of around the reason that I think you're hinting at, because, especially when it comes to culture and people call it culture inclusion, diversity, whatever language you want to use, but making sure everyone's respected and the productivity in the organization is best it can be. And it's a 10-minute tool.

26:16

So what we did was we took five two-minute scenarios one and a half minute of real events that we then had used in our various programs, and they're set in different industries. It might have been in an industrial hospital office, let's say, and then it'll give you seven or eight choices of what you can do. Now you don't play it out like you do in the training, but you would just pick out what you would do. So now I'm a chief human resource officer, I give it to 1,000 employees in my organization and I can see very quickly well, nobody seems to have a problem with this, but gosh, we're not doing very well over here.

27:04

Okay, let me put my resources and my thinking cap on to address fill-in-the-bl, the blank bullying, or to address neurodiversity. We have some neurodiverse employees. People really don't understand how to work with those folks. They have a lot of talent and a lot to offer the organization. I didn't realize that, and awareness is the first step, and so then what we do is we give them a report and all of this is complimentary, by the way, we don't charge any money for this and then we say, okay, if this is where you are, here are some suggestions on products and tools that we have that might help you.

Jamie Serino

27:51

Yeah, that's great, the diagnosis of it, the assessment.

27:56

Jumping back to the AI tool, to Willow, what I find really interesting there is that.

28:02

So part of me is like, uh-oh, now we're engaging AI in decision-making Right, like what's next?

28:12

Right, but it really isn't quite that, because when I think of the way most people might use, like ChatGPT or something like that, it might be to help them write something, but you can ask ChatGPT about an important decision that you have to make right. Or you can ask an AI, an LLM, about a decision and it's not gonna make the decision for you an LLM, you know about a decision and it's not going to make the decision for you, but it's going to help you rationalize right, and so that's what it seems like Willow is doing there. So the hope is, I guess, the person using it learns that rationalization and almost like a sort of technique about this is an important decision, like a sort of technique about this is an important decision. Yes, I've asked this AI you know tool, but if, if there's a lack of an AI tool, can I use that same technique to rationalize about this decision-making, and so? So that to me seems really powerful, what? What are some additional thoughts from you about, about Willow and about where this will all go.

Sharon Sloane

29:10

Well, first of all, I'm glad you brought that up because we are very clear about what she is not. This is not big brother watching you or anything like that. Um, it's very conversational and we have guardrails built into it where, um, she will very gently bring you back to the relevant points and the topic at hand. If you start to ask her for legal advice or you start asking how to treat a snake bite, right right, right Now, the capability is there and we have a secret code that we can unlock it and she'll talk with you about anything. But that's not part of this product that's being launched. We went, you know, all the way and then we came back and we put the appropriate guardrails in. But it's kind of like think of her more as a friend, a colleague, a coach that you can chat with. That will help you gather the information, but provide a safe space for you to ask a question, because you're not raising your hand in a room of 30 people.

30:25

This is not tracked. There's nothing here that is going to be attached to you. So let's say that you generally don't know. You don't know whether you should intervene in a situation you can talk with her about. Well, what if I do this? What are the consequences for me? Will I get in trouble? And she can talk you through the HR policies in your organization and some of the things you should consider, but never give you legal advice or tell you what you should do. It's more to build critical thinking. I think this is your point, jamie, when you were talking about. We're about teaching decision-making, exactly Enabling people to look at how they're making decisions and make more informed ones, rather than saying do this.

Jamie Serino

31:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fantastic, yeah, that's fantastic. So then, when you think about you know bystanders, it's making me think of a mental health training that I sometimes do, that I sometimes provide. And there's a question of you see someone that is having a hard time. They're getting angry at things they normally don't get angry about. Do you ask them, you know, is everything okay? You know, or do you tell someone in HR and it goes into, and I know you do. I did one of your trainings about suicide prevention Really really powerful. So I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that, you know, and you could draw in. What do you do? You're at work. Maybe it seems inappropriate, uh, this, we're at work, I'm not supposed to do that. You know, um, and that's the bystander realm, but there are other. You also bring up other scenarios, other settings you know about. How can you tell if someone might be going down that road and how can you bring them back?

Sharon Sloane

32:31

Yeah Well, mental health is, of course, close to my heart, because that's where I started, and you know, I think there are a lot of pieces to this. Interestingly enough, one of the scenarios in the culture diagnostic tool is about an employee again based on real events who sees her boss struggling. So now you have the additional challenge of not only should I confront him and I don't really like the word confront there but should I engage him, because not only is it a colleague, he's my boss, so is it my place to do that? Um, but I really like him as a person and I want to help him, um, and so what are some of the options and how might I go about it? And the other thing is we we give people some role modeling, like words to say ways to go about it.

33:29

Because you mentioned the army suicide, uh, intervention that we did a number of years ago, which was very interesting and almost scary for me at the time, because the army was facing a suicide crisis of like 25 suicides a month, which is, of course, unconscionably frightening.

33:52

And when they called us to the pentagon and asked us if we could engage our methodology around this, there were, of course, skeptics, and you know, one of the people said well, wait a minute, if we do an interactive movie around this, will we give people the idea to commit suicide? Well, of course people don't commit suicide for that reason at all. That's totally not. But the question was a good question because if anyone's thinking that way, it's going to affect their behavior and whether they're going to intervene. Well, we ended up building that interactive movie the one that you saw, jamie called Beyond the Front and there was actually a worldwide stand down. The Army was so on top of this that during a 30-day period, every American soldier and Army civilian around the globe used the program and we reduced Army suicide by over 60%.

34:54

Wow, it was so enormously successful that I received you know, the Army secretary sent me a coin and a personal letter which very special possessions of mine to this day.

35:07

But more important was, I actually got phone calls from people that say you saved my husband's life, you saved my daughter's life, so it's extremely powerful. But, in terms of you know what pulls people into mental health, and we've seen so much challenge around resilience and burnout, especially with COVID. Especially with COVID, I think that one of my things that I believe is really important and I hope we do a better job of it is mental health gets siloed, and what I mean by that is mental health at work is not just the mental health training and we do do that and we have a great program on resilience but sexual harassment, bullying, workplace violence, cybersecurity, it's all of these things are intertwined. They all create stress at work, they all create challenges, and we did a program that we partnered with Yale Yale Health Fund called the Thriving Clinician. Of course, you know, we all know the clinicians, the doctors and nurses. When COVID hit my goodness, I mean, it was a crisis of untoward proportions.

36:28

Well, the clinicians were burning out yeah how do you approach a well-known, credentialed, awarded, amazing leader in a hospital environment of one of the leading hospitals in the world who himself is struggling? And I think it was just like so incredibly courageous and innovative of Yale, new Haven Health to take this on? The program's called the Thriving Clinician. So it's really a complex situation and a lot of that in that environment came from just you know, working 25 hours a day.

Jamie Serino

37:14

Yeah.

Sharon Sloane

37:15

I mean, eventually you just burn out. You need to take care of yourself. And it's not about bringing in donuts or taking a yoga class, and there's nothing wrong with donuts or a yoga class. It's a lot more complicated than that, yeah, yeah.

Jamie Serino

37:32

Yeah, go ahead, peter. Can you tell me some stories?

Peter Carucci

37:35

I live in an environment of severe stress and strife in one of the worst areas in the United States. Me. I can't tell you how hearing what you do is so valuable. I have to tell you that it's so very valuable because I think arming people with the capacity to address whether it's mental health or there's self-examination of what can I do differently it's very powerful. And I want to stay on this topic of mental health, if you're okay with that. Do you find that, through some of the? I guess what are some of the biggest challenges you face in providing that Like, for example, that story when you're at the Pentagon and the generals are like, is this going to create more suicidal ideation by showing these videos? Just the opposite happened. I mean, are there other struggles you've had or challenges trying to and I'm thinking more maybe in the corporate bubble or how receptive? I want to know what that reception looks like. I mean, is it a challenging experience for you guys?

Sharon Sloane

38:55

Yes, and it's really interesting too, because the people that really understand the impact of mental health on the organization. It's not only the right thing to do, but from a business perspective, let's just take all the humanity out of it, which of course we would right thing to do. But from a business perspective, let's just take all the humanity out of it, which of course we would never want to do, but strictly from the bottom line perspective. People are struggling, then they can't possibly work in the proper way and the team will fail and so forth. And I think, um, you know, one of the things that comes to mind is a Fortune 500 company. Nobody realized it, but one of the senior executives took his life and the team was shocked. How didn't we see what was going on with so-and-so God? If we had known, we would have tried to help them.

39:58

So a lot of what we do is educating people on the warning signs, and you know you mentioned Jamie someone suddenly who was very even-tempered becomes angry. Or somebody who you know always showed up for work on time and joked around is missing days and not calling in. We have two workplace violence programs also right now. One of them is active threat response. It's actually active shooter, which is of course, the worst possible scenario, but it happens, as we all know. And the other one is something where it's an employee who was not given a promotion and he feels that he should have gotten the promotion rather than the employee who received the promotion. And how does he handle that? And how does the manager handle that when he confronts the manager?

40:57

Now, as I talk about that, companies are purchasing those programs for two reasons. One, there's requirements in some states like California to do workplace violence prevention training. But secondly, they also realize that even not in California or states that require it, it's a big problem. And so when we talk about mental health, that's mental health, but that's not what people think of when they think of mental health. So one of the things that we do is we take a very broad view of the workplace and the things that contribute to well-being and resilience, and being comfortable enough to ask someone a question if you think they're struggling, and how do you do that? So it's very jolting when something like this happens and people say how come none of us realized what was going on?

Jamie Serino

42:14

Yeah, yeah, it's uh and and and just addressing um, I think you're calling back when you said, oh, if we talk about it will it raise and it's nothing against that person that said that but, um, that is one of the notions out there. And there are all these notions or myths out there that you sort of seek to correct and then to make people more aware. So it's, you know. So in some of the trainings that I do, we sometimes call it like mental health first aid, right, and so sometimes you might see something and it's like, okay, get a bandaid on it at least, or you know, stop, stop the bleeding, so to speak, and then that person maybe then needs to be referred to to someone else.

43:04

How can you be sort of aware of those types of situations in the same way you might if someone became physically hurt and there are clear warning signs, and to make more people aware of those and then to undo some of the myths, like I remember that myth, you know, from the 80s, actually, right, it's like the heavy metal music and you know, and if we talk about it it's going to increase, you know, and then you feel like that was disproven, but then I don't think everyone got that memo, so to speak, right and people in the field take it for granted. I think that everyone knows that and most people don't. So I think you know that training is really good and I come across it as I, you know, do just the in-person trainings and stuff like that and I remember, you know your, your movie and making those decisions and again, what's right, what's wrong, what's you know what, what's going to happen here? It's, it's powerful, and you know. So, peter, you and I were talking about this a little bit and you had to deal with this in in, in schools, you know, yeah. So you know what did that look like?

Peter Carucci

44:13

Well, you know, I think what I'm hearing, sharon, your program is amazing at also creating a little a strange degree of empathy in a work environment for each other. I would say compassion, but it's really just awareness of each other's needs to work better as a team. You know, in the environment that I worked in, I mean, I saw stuff like this every day, whether it was an active shooter to suicide, to things of a nature people shouldn't see every day, and I think that if I had access to this kind of training I would have brought it in immediately. I've been. You know, I can't stop thinking about that story. You just related about one of those executives. You know I wrote a song once about two close friends of mine who had taken their lives, and I had no idea that even they were struggling, you know, and so it takes years to get over something like that, and I think the power in in a group setting of relating to each other and being aware of each other's um needs is is almost entirely overlooked.

Sharon Sloane

45:33

Because you got to what are we doing today?

Peter Carucci

45:35

What's our task? Today? We live in a bit such a whether it's the army or a corporation or a school, it doesn't matter a hospital, what's going on, let's go, let's go and people get so caught up in that kind of I'm just seeing a hamster on a wheel in my head right now. You know that they don't actually slow down and take the time necessary to even just interact, interreact, to be aware of each other's, whether it's social or emotional needs or even just actual needs. And I'm very fascinated because it sounds like your program here has actually helped not only helped to do that, but has the right ingredients necessary to do that.

46:22

Like I keep, I'm big about engagement right, so like, let's, whether it's a teacher in a classroom, how do they keep all the kids engaged? Or if you're a business leader and I've done these trainings with some CEOs where they're trying to get their C-suite to all agree on the one mission that they all want to do, but everyone just needs to sell, so they're all in their own little bubble. They don't care about that mission. I think I like seeing that your program actually helps create a singular kind of mindset around some of that work. You know what I mean, I'd like to hear more, if you could, sharon, of maybe some successes that you've had where you've seen turnarounds, you know, like that inspiring story about military and suicide. That's just remarkable.

Sharon Sloane

47:19

Well, what you're really talking about is culture. You know, the culture of an organization is huge. It's a catch-all term in some ways, but I think what we see is that once we start to open up that conversation and people realize that it's actually a strength to identify these challenges, there's nothing weak about this at all, Whether it's an individual coming forward and saying I need some help or it's an organization saying we want to make sure our culture is as strong as possible, you know everybody will tell you we care about our people. Right, that's motherhood and apple pie. Of course we care about our people. Ask the people Now. That works both ways, and one of the interesting things I've noticed over the years is some of the strongest organizations are where the people care about their leaders and not because they are going to be responsible for their promotion or their raise, going to be responsible for their promotion or their raise, but there's actually a bond where we're working together and we care about each other as human beings.

48:38

That doesn't mean you have to be everyone's best friend and we're not training people to be psychologists or psychiatrists heaven knows, not that but I think that it's something where it's hard to put your finger on it, but you can walk into a workplace and pretty, if you talk to enough people, you'll get a sense of the culture and how people feel about working there. Articulating it somehow is a little bit more difficult, but you will start to hear stories. Well, you know our team will go in and do focus groups and there's no attribution. You know we cover that up front. And I'm thinking of a very, very prestigious health care organization that we did a lot of work with, and it's like there were some very, very well-known, prestigious medical personnel doctors doing some not very good things at all in terms of younger people in their organization.

49:57

Well, how do you confront that person? He's a world-renowned neurosurgeon, or he's the head of the lab that gets $60 million in grants this month, this year, or whatever. And so it's really a leadership issue, because when leadership cares and it becomes their priority, then it becomes an organizational priority and then, like other things, you know, priorities become the priorities. Like, we just don't treat people like that around here. We always do this. Now, it's not perfect, and what makes it difficult to measure is it is squishy, okay. Plus, organizations are not going to give you a lot of hard data on that, and I understand why. So we're not going to say, oh well, okay, we reduced the number of suicides in our organization, unless you're like the military, where it's public information. But what we will hear is and we have clients that have been with us for years and years you're making a difference in how it is to work here and our company and how we're thriving and the caliber of people we recruit and our retention and our brand, and that's where we see the benefits.

Jamie Serino

51:30

Yeah, when I run brand workshops and when I do like brand refreshes or rebrands and stuff, I also go in and run like focus groups and stuff and I'm not sort of seeking the same exact type of information as you, but I begin to hear stories, you know, and it's.

51:48

It's really interesting when I'm in an organization where there is alignment and the people that are happy, morale is high and there's alignment between what the leader is saying and what people that are far from the leader are saying.

52:02

Right, and then it's interesting when there's not alignment there and it'll even be this like oh well, on our website we say this, but in reality this is what happens, you know, and on this outsider, coming in, and people can't wait to unload, right, they can't wait to tell me about this, you know, and hearing all these stories, you know, and so it does become part of the fix for the brand Because you know it may be most times that brand is tarnished on the outside because there's something going on on the inside, you know, and that's, you know, kind of like a corporate problem there.

52:38

Then what you're talking about, you know it's a cultural problem that is becomes a sort of corporate problem and you know, and that's not even mental health related. You know it could be, or working there might not be great for a person's mental health, but it's interesting that you've. You know, you were talking about that, you know, and Pete and I were talking about focus groups and stuff, because he does the team building exercises and focus groups again, and so what are the problems that need to get fixed? You know, so it's really interesting when you get to go in there and learn all that and then try to fix it. But yeah, go ahead.

Peter Carucci

53:13

You know it's funny because, like you know, let's just say, a CEO would bring, would bring me in to do a team building activity, and then the first thing you do is you meet with their two underlings who hate her or him, and they're venting to you about how their direct boss is. Basically, you know the enemy of everything they're trying to do and it's like, how does that trickle down? Then you meet with the next group down and it really, it really does shake things up when you can, when you can actually help them. Agree, it's crazy, by the end of, let's say, a successful team building activity that I've been a part of, now, finally, this person and these two and these people down here, it's like jamie said, the the alignment is is like, uh, not only just coalesces on the vision of the whole place but helps them work better. It's crazy that subtlety, you know, I'm sure you see that every day.

Jamie Serino

54:14

You know, yeah, and I and I could add, you know, and then it would be. It'd be interesting to hear what you have to say about that. So, like what Peter's talking about there, about getting them to agree, there are times when it is a communication breakdown and there are times, like a lot of people will say, like a CEO makes it to CEO through certain paths, and usually they are people with maybe what you might call a high level of social intelligence or whatever you want to believe there. Other times it might be like a product leader, or maybe the product is very techie and they're an engineer and they're brilliant, but they do not, they're not very good at communicating, and then there's a breakdown because people aren't sure what that person wants and they're not sure how they communicate, and so you've probably been dropped into those situations and and you have trainings on on that- yes, you're spot on.

Sharon Sloane

55:09

You know, one of the things that we have as a series of. We call it business class, but what it really is is listening skills, empathy, tactful feedback, resilience and team building. Part of the problem is that listening, for example, is a very underrated skill. Nobody really teaches it much in school skill. Nobody really teaches it much in school. Most people's idea of listening is trying to hear the other person while I'm figuring out what I'm going to say. So what? Why isn't it okay?

Peter Carucci

55:55

Wait, I didn't hear you. I was trying to figure out what I was trying to say.

Sharon Sloane

55:59

It wasn't you say that again, right, um, you know it's, it's harder to listen than to talk, yeah, for many people. Um, and so we have sort of the how-to. I think that we need to marry the what with the how-to. So if we're preventing sexual harassment and workplace violence and we want to have a diverse and inclusive culture, let's give the people the actual skills, take it out of that nomenclature, it out of that nomenclature and talk about listening skills, tactile feedback.

56:42

You know, I was talking to somebody this was several years ago. They wanted to know if we had a program on teamwork or communication. I said many, but you know, talk to me a little bit more about what's going on. And the person said, well, and this was before COVID. Well, what happens is when we go into a meeting with our team, there's about 10 of us and we're around this, you know, big conference table. But if somebody says something that the guy in charge doesn't like, he usually like throws something at the individual, like a pencil or a pad or you know something that's on the table, like that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

57:33

Get out.

57:34

And I said really and she said really Wow, like, okay, well, let's find out what's really going on here, and you know, then, of course, we have many conversations after that, but that's an extreme situation. But you know, is it really that the person doesn't want any other ideas, that they don't know how to acknowledge the value of other people? Is it an ego thing? You know, of course there's all kinds of different answers, but what we can do is we can create the behaviors that people have a toolkit. So if you're not feeling good about what's happening, what skills do you have available? Because it's not about getting everybody to agree and, quite frankly, some people are jerks. How do you handle that?

Jamie Serino

58:36

Right, right, yeah, and you know you also talked about, you know, showing strength, showing weakness, and it just makes me think to ask, made me think to ask then, and kind of remembering it now, working with the military and working with people that you know don't want to show weakness Right, working with people that you know don't want to show weakness right. And there'll be certain industries and if you to work with police officers or firefighters or you know they're in life or death situations and there's this sort of sort of shield they need to have, right, when do you put that down? When do you put that up? And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that, about you know, working with those types of groups that and telling them it's okay to communicate, it's okay to let people know that you know you're not doing well, uh, to show these signs of quote, unquote weakness, um, you know, cause it's actually good, or to check in with somebody and have this type of conversation.

59:36

You know I was doing this mental health training with construction workers and telling them, you know, and and it's really interesting with them too, because they don't want to show physical weakness, because they could get kicked off the job and then they actually lose money. They won't get kicked off the job and get paid. They'll get kicked off the job. Oh, it looks like your leg hurts or your back or whatever. You're gone Right. So they're hiding physical weakness. They're hiding mental, you know issues and whatnot. So I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that, especially dealing with a lot of the groups that you deal with.

Sharon Sloane

01:00:09

Yeah, we do work with law enforcement, the military, healthcare. We have a new program actually coming out called Common Ground Industrial which is in that collar environment warehouse, transportation and so forth. It's around sexual harassment, bullying and abusive conduct. That's a different environment but the issues are really the same and I think that you know it really has to be about checking in and are you okay? Like sometimes the language that you use can make a big difference in how comfortable people are about that sort of thing.

01:00:59

People are about that sort of thing and then sometimes it's actually the environment is creating stressors where if you change the workflow you can actually improve the stress, and then it's really not about coping, it's about the underlying problems of that environment. Can we do something to actually improve the situation, the circumstances, and are people open, you know, to having that kind of a conversation? So I think that whether it's law enforcement, the military, software-based is. Some people think that let's say I'm working in a hospital and you're working in a warehouse, that if I just take the background behind the video and mine looks like a hospital and yours looks like a warehouse, that's customized training.

Jamie Serino

01:02:22

Right.

Sharon Sloane

01:02:24

It doesn't work that way at all. Yeah, it's got to look like, sound like and feel like your world. Yeah, and that's why it's so important to get it right.

Peter Carucci

01:02:35

Yeah.

Sharon Sloane

01:02:37

So I think that's a you know a big, a big part of it. I always say to people when they're buying the training, if they're the decision maker, people in leadership would you want to take this training? If you wouldn't want to take it, if you didn't feel valued, if you didn't think it was a good use of an hour of your time, then why are you forcing your people to do it? Let's find something else that's going to add value, because that's how you're perceived. You have to walk the talk.

Jamie Serino

01:03:15

Yeah, and it has to be. People won't take it seriously if they are just going to get, and that's what happens. You have people joking around about it and, like you said, they're taking it and doing something else. Look to kind of conclude was just about like learning styles and I just happened to be reading an article about it.

01:03:44

I don't know that much about like learning styles and I think each of you would know a lot more than that, but I was just reading an article about debunking. It was saying it was debunking the myths of learning styles, saying I'm a visual learner or I'm I learned better, you know, through auditory learning is. People may feel that, but the data doesn't prove that that they actually do better in those types of things. But and I just bring this up because we, you know you're actually accessing a few different, you know, mediums to have people learn and it's more of a curiosity question and, you know, wondered if you had an opinion on that or if you thought about that or how that plays into, you know, when you create your videos.

Sharon Sloane

01:04:34

Yeah. So I think, first of all, you know there's most people learn from personal experience. That's where we learn most of what we do in life. It's just what happens to us in the real world and situations. The next thing is you know kind of what we learn from other people? And then, finally, is the training, or education. I think it's less about the style, it's really about the level of engagement and see what's happening is.

01:05:09

Now. There are some people I was one that back in the day, when I was in college, I went to all the classes. I went to the lectures, especially if the professor was good, and I was fortunate enough to have many who were very good, because I learned that way. You know, I took notes. I like people and I like to hear what people have to say and I like that engagement and I like to hear what people have to say and I like that engagement.

01:05:40

Now, other people would maybe not go to the lecture, but they'd spend more time reading the textbook and going over the notes. So I do think that people have preferences in terms of what they gravitate toward, but I really think it's getting in the zone. You know they talk a lot about being in the zone, whether you're playing a video game or watching a movie or, hopefully, doing our training. If you're really leaning in and you're really involved, you will learn. And also learning needs to be active, not passive. It's very important that you're interacting with it and what you do and say and feel is being reflected back to you. I don't know, pete, what do you think about that?

Peter Carucci

01:06:31

Well, it sounds like your program has hit the nail on the head because, you know, it doesn't really matter how the modality of how someone might like I might be more of an auditory learner or a visual learner it really is the like you're saying, the level of engagement. They call it performance tasks or project-based learning. When people are actually building a project together or performing a task together, they actually learn so much better than if they're just sitting there, you know, passively watching um something or listening to something. But I think that what I what I love about what will does, what your program does, is that it it forces them in some way to not only piques their interest but and there's some very similar to to what they're going through in their own life and the setting, whether it's a hospital or military or whatever and then all of a sudden, they're, they're actively having choice and agency and what their next, what their their decision-making and what the next outcome will be.

01:07:40

I think that's huge. I think that's probably the most powerful way to allow a group of people or an individual to learn. I think it hits the nail on the head. You know, and I just want to say in conclusion, I hope everybody uses what you guys offer because that's very powerful, like teachers still, to this day, refuse to do anything other than maybe lecture and fill the vessel of the child's mind like a cup, and that's not actually how kids learn. Staff, like your analogy of the CEO throwing a pen at the person and kicking him out, that's not productive for a group environment, it's just not productive, and so I think it benefits everyone to have that level of empathy and engagement, engagement, and and then you're going to see a hospital working better, company working better, uh, military organization of your choice working better.

Jamie Serino

01:08:45

I mean, um, honestly, I think everyone could benefit sharon from, from your trainings yeah, and you also mentioned experience, and that's one of the things that your trainings do is you sort of have an experience like let me see what it's like to make that decision and see what happens. And now I'm the character in there and I'm experiencing that and that that, you know, sort of burns that in, I think, a little bit deeper. Um so, and it's the storytelling also that you were talking about in the beginning, so really powerful.

Sharon Sloane

01:09:23

Experience is the best teacher. So what we're doing is we're providing a virtual experience, because some things you don't want to experience in life they're too painful, they're too dangerous, they're too expensive. Here you have the benefit of having gone through the experience without the risks and we're basically changing people's defaults. We're building muscle memory the same way you would at the gym if you do enough reps, so that when you confront a similar situation in real life, your default, your reaction, is different. You know many people talk about instinct. Much of instinct is actually learned behavior.

01:10:03

Realize that, but it's actually your reaction comes from learning through different experiences that you've had. So we give people the benefit of that, without the cost and the time of having to live through everything before they face something similar in real life.

Jamie Serino

01:10:23

Yeah, all right, sharon, thank you very much. Um, uh, so everybody can go to will interactivecom. Um and uh, I'll, I'll put that in the show notes and whatnot. Uh, is there anything else you'd like to add, sharon?

Sharon Sloane

01:10:41

Well, also, um, you know, we're having the webinar on Wednesday. I don't know when this will air, though, um, when you'll be out, but we have another one on November 13th. Come to our website, because we often do demonstrations, uh, willow and our programs. We often do demonstrations of Willow and our programs, and we love to have conversations with people. We love to learn, so, and even if anyone wants to talk to me, sharon at willinteractive.com, it will get to me and I will answer your email, ask me a question or share an experience you've had. We're very collaborative and we love to engage with folks that are interested in this kind of thing.

Jamie Serino

01:11:30

Excellent. Well, thank you so much for spending the time with us Everybody, thank you for watching or listening, and we'll see you next time. Thank you.