Episode 11 Transcript: What Does it Take to Thrive as a Teacher in the Bronx for 26 Years?
There’s a Lesson in Here Somewhere Podcast
Episode 11 Transcript
Guest: Joe Geno, Teacher and Author of Lesson Learned
There’s a Lesson in Here Somewhere is a podcast hosted by Jamie Serino that features exceptional people that have compelling stories to tell. Whether it’s a unique perspective, an act of kindness, an inspirational achievement, a hardship overcome, or bearing witness to a captivating event, these are stories that must be heard, and from which we can draw important lessons.
What Does it Take to Thrive as a Teacher in the Bronx for 26 Years?
Joe Geno has dedicated 26 years to teaching in the Bronx, a testament to his passion and resilience. In this episode, Joe shares stories from his new book, Lesson Learned, offering a wealth of insights and advice for educators and professionals in high-pressure environments.
Joe’s candid recounting of his career, enriched with humorous and impactful anecdotes, reveals a journey shaped by a determination to succeed, and an open-mindedness to learn through the process of teaching about thriving as an educator. He reflects on the highs and lows of life in the education system, imparting the profound lessons he's learned along the way.
From his early dreams of becoming a poet to navigating the daily challenges of teaching, Joe's story is both relatable and inspiring for anyone forging their own career path. His experiences promise not just valuable lessons, but also plenty of laughter and motivation. Whether you’re in education or another service-related or high-pressure field, Joe’s wisdom will leave you enlightened and uplifted.
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Intro
00:02
Welcome to There's a Lesson in Here Somewhere, conversations with interesting people with fascinating stories to tell and from which we can draw important lessons. Here are your hosts, Jamie Serino and Peter Carucci.
Jamie Serino Host
00:18
Hello and welcome to. There's a Lesson in here Somewhere. I'm Jamie Serino and I'm Peter Carucci, and we're here today with Joe Geno an old friend, peter, and I know Joe all the way back from college, great guy, writer, music lover and now author. So Joe has recently written a book called Lesson Learned and it's about his journey through the education system being a teacher, about his adventures as a teacher, but also there's a lot of advice in there for teachers and for people in education, and as I sort of look through the chapter titles, it seems like anyone that has a stressful job, anyone maybe working with children, I think, could draw a lot out of this book. So, joe, welcome, thanks for joining us, and why don't you tell us a little bit more about yourself?
Joe Geno Guest
01:25
Sure, well, thank you for having me here. So yeah, I'm originally from Syracuse, new York, kind of suburbs of Syracuse, I guess. In my early 20s I kind of got bored up there and wanted something a little more exciting in life and I was also kind of inspired to. In 98, I got accepted to Brooklyn College. I wanted to study with the famous poet Alan Ginsberg, who was a beat poet from the 50s. He was a professor at Brooklyn College and I wanted to study with him.
02:03
Unfortunately I didn't get accepted to the MFA program, but a year later I did get accepted to the MA program in English. So I moved to Brooklyn but unfortunately Allen Ginsberg had cancer at that time and he was no longer around. So then that started my journey into kind of higher education and actually through our friend Pete there he helped me get into education because I really wasn't thinking about becoming a teacher like a high school teacher. I was thinking, maybe college, but my main focus for wanting to study was being a writer. But I didn't know what that meant in terms of a paycheck.
Peter Carucci Host
02:50
You were a poet back then, right, wasn't it more?
Joe Geno Guest
02:51
poetry. Yes, I was a poet. So even worse, because if you're going to be a writer, journalists, the novelists, those people get money. Poets don't get money. Um, but and it's strange, like it's strange. I went into binghamton like that too, like this is what I interest is, but I'm not really thinking about what happens when I get out. You know, um, but it was a good base to kind of try to explore other careers when I really had to, like make ends meet, yeah.
Jamie Serino Host
03:27
Yeah, I remember that. Now you reminded me about Allen Ginsberg and Brooklyn College and everything and the timing. But so you graduated and then you were thinking, what am I going to do next? And I remember you were in Hoboken for a little while and we were hanging out. And then you were thinking, what am I going to do next? And I remember you were in Hoboken for a little while and we were hanging out, and then you went to the Bronx and then Pete maybe you can like fill in the gaps here so there were teacher openings at the school. You were at right. So what happened?
Peter Carucci Host
04:00
Yeah, and so I also needed a roommate, and so. I said hey Joe, do you want to be a teacher? And I remember your first reaction you were no way, no way, and I go, just come for the interview, come on, and you go, no way. And then somehow I talked you into both being my roommate and getting this interview with our old principal. Is that right, both being my roommate and getting this interview with our old principal?
Joe Geno Guest
04:26
Is that right? Yes, you got me right in and I was kind of desperate because I was working at Borders Bookstore in Midtown. I was desperate.
04:36
I was. I mean I really was In terms of getting a place, because I didn't have a place and then getting a wage that will actually pay for it. So I mean the idea of making $32,000 was wow, I was going to have my first real job. I felt like that when I started teaching. You know, it was funny because the paycheck was like $800 twice a month and rent was $750. I was like wow. But I was happy because I could afford a car and I just paid the bills. Nice.
Jamie Serino Host
05:16
So now what was it when you were thinking oh, I could be a teacher, but I could be a teacher in college. I don't think I could be a teacher in high school. What was going on in your mind that made you think that?
Joe GenoGuest
05:28
Well, I was always intellectually stimulated in college. I loved that environment of having lectures, discussion, highbrow thinking of whatever topic you're talking about. I mean topic you're you're talking about, I mean that that's. We don't get that so much in high school I mean high school is is a different level.
05:53
Yeah and um, and I kind of thought that even when I was in high school I'm like, thank god, I don't have to come back to high school. Yeah, and, funny enough, you've been for 25 years now. Yeah, and actually three of those years was in my high school that I went to school at. I went to Ohio State for three years and I got to teach alongside some high school teachers that taught me when I was there Nice yeah.
Jamie Serino Host
06:21
So, yeah, I guess there's the thing with high school, like you know, the kids they're forced to be there, right, and so you're teaching English and I happen to be a student that loved English, right, I didn't really like math, you know, so I was forced to be in math, but I loved English and so that's part of it. So, maybe segueing a little bit into the book and into your experiences, like, how do you work with a class like that, where maybe only a handful of people really like that and the rest, you know, maybe there's a subset that they're okay with it and then there's a subset they totally don't want to be there, and that's like your audience.
Joe Geno Guest
07:03
Yeah, one thing I learned early on was I had to develop some kind of relationship with these students who are a completely different generation, from a completely different environment, a different experience, different background. And how am I going to develop a relationship? Because you know, yeah, not a lot of them are going to be English majors. So I think one of my tactics was humor, you know. And I also had to appropriate myself into the culture, because they talk different, they have different interests myself into the culture because they talk different, they have different interests.
Peter Carucci Host
07:52
And, without naming the school per se specifically, it is important to note that you went straight into the largest school in the state of New York one or two in the nation in the inner city in the Bronx, where 91% out of 100 kids was free or reduced lunch poverty. Number one in gang representation crime, violent major crime. That's what I'm still surprised about, like it's amazing you just chose to go into that environment. Yeah, you know. How did you bridge those gaps?
Joe Geno Guest
08:20
Well, I didn't really know exactly what I was getting into oh my fault, oops but my attitude was I need to make this work because, well, career-wise I didn't know like I wanted to make it work. And then eventually I saw quickly the nobility of the job. Eventually I saw quickly the nobility of the of the job. I saw the people who really cared about this teaching high school or administering in high school and how it is important to the stage of those kids lives, and so I latched on to that. Even though that wasn't something that I thought about or was inspired Like, I got inspired when I saw it and I was in it and then I was like all right, I can work with like this, this is a good job.
09:20
I mean, obviously people teachers like to talk about wanting to get higher pay and so forth and maybe higher status among society. But you know, the general push to like help kids, to help others, to be of service to others, is really important. And it was important for me because up until that time I was completely self-involved, like self-centered, I mean I wasn't mean to other people but I wasn't really thinking about other people either. I was kind of thinking about my own interests, my own desires, and this was the first time where I had to think of others for myself, and anytime somebody who's self-involved like feels like, uh, they're on the ledge of something that you always have to go back to servicing others. And I realized that. And then becoming a family man really made me realize that.
Peter Carucci Host
10:25
I remember when, out of the blue, we started playing a lot of chess, me and you. This is the late 90s, the next thing I know you were the advisor of the chess club and we started a chess club out of the blue, basically in this cavernous old like closet that they emptied out for us to have the chess club after school, and I'll never forget the principal going. You want to do what you still play chess with these kids. It goes good luck. And then we had about eight, ten kids. Then it exploded. We had to go to the library and you basically had these tournaments and I mean early on, I mean in your career, you started a chess club in the bronx yeah, chess was um.
Joe Geno Guest
11:15
When I was in my 20s, chess was uh, I really got into it. Go to the village. I would play at the shops over there. Um, and I think it started with Jamie back in Binghamton, if you remember.
Jamie Serino Host
11:28
And Airem. You know, you may have seen the episode with Airem and I told the story. I think Joe and I were playing chess and we were getting into it and we felt like we were pretty good and then Item comes in, this guy from Brazil, and we're like hey, item, you play next. And he played next and I don't remember which one he beat. He beat us in like three moves and we're like what? And then no one wanted to play him. He was a chess genius, right, but he ended up like teaching us a lot.
11:58
uh as we were playing, so and yeah, joe, you really like ran with it.
Joe Geno Guest
12:03
My competitive juices got going because I hated to lose and I really wanted to learn. So I got books and I started playing and I went to tournaments. Aren't you an actual ranked master? Is that?
Peter Carucci Host
12:16
correct Well.
Joe Geno Guest
12:17
I'm not a ranked master. Are you a master?
Peter Carucci Host
12:25
No I haven't.
Joe Geno Guest
12:26
No, I haven't. But my greatest achievement is I beat a guy who was 1900, which I think master level is like 2000. Wow, but that's kind of a maybe. You know, especially when I get into retirement I might get back to like a habit of chess and maybe that's on my bucket list to really maybe become a master. It depends on how. It really depends, on how much time I want to spend on it.
Jamie Serino Host
12:55
I think I can do it, but there's something you said earlier about like being on the ledge and then going back to service, and I think we've heard like some quotes like that before and I appreciate that you said that and I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that feeling. And it seemed like you realized this. You realized that maybe you were too self-centered, you needed to be a little more selfless. And then I think it could be a good segue into what you talk about in the book, because when we were reconnecting you were saying that you're not burnt out. You're teaching in this very difficult environment for as long as you've been teaching and you're not burnt out. And that's part of what the book is about is how to keep doing this without getting burnt out. So you got being selfless, being on the ledge, remembering service. Don't be, you know, don't let yourself get burnt out. How could you sort of talk about all that?
Joe Geno Guest
13:54
Yeah, there was a chapter in my book. I said something like are you surviving, Are you thriving?
Peter Carucci Host
14:01
Striving or thriving, and there's really a difference Survive, strive, thrive.
Joe Geno Guest
14:07
And so my early years was survival, because I didn't really know the mechanics of teaching and I had to learn all that because I had no previous experience. Like any teacher today they'll do student teaching, go to school of education. I literally did nothing. I was in a classroom and so I had to learn from the leadership. We had good leadership and they had a very structural way to go about your lessons. So that helped me and I ended up getting a very good mentor and so that at least got my feet under me. And but then I had to.
14:50
After that I had to deal with the system and getting a little jaded, feeling like a cog in the wheel. And I talk about that in the book too, because you know you're part of a system of 100,000 teachers was over a million students, now they're down to about 700,000. And how do you, how do you move forward without feeling like you're just a peon? You know, and what you're doing doesn't really move the ball anywhere. You know, and what you're doing doesn't really move the ball anywhere. And for me, you know, I just kind of learn my limits about what I can do and what I can't do. I don't worry about what's outside my classroom. Necessarily I worry about what students are in my roster and what I can do to help them develop their skills. That's one of the main motivations.
15:52
When I'm talking to students is like, look, you guys just got to work on your skills of literacy, reading and writing, and, and in many cases they're behind, because reading is not a medium that people will go to.
16:11
They're too distracted by the screens and the computers, and so for them to put that aside and actually open a book and read it takes focus, it's a lot slower, it's not necessarily visual visual, it's more imaginative um, and so we got to develop those muscles and skills to to be able to do that, um. So I understand that what I'm selling is, um, not the most palatable of mediums, yeah, but it's still important. And a lot of my students are college bound yeah, so you need it for college. Unfortunately, and what we don't hear a lot about is we hear a higher graduation rate, but we don't hear about how they're doing in college rate, but we don't hear about how they're doing in college and unfortunately, from different publications, I've seen a lot of them. More than half of them drop out by their second year and more than that don't get a four-year degree.
Peter Carucci Host
17:19
If I'm not mistaken, you did an actual action research study on trailing them right 20 years ago or 15 years ago, or something. I mean you know what you're talking about here. This isn't like conjecture.
Joe Geno Guest
17:33
I mean I've looked up different statistics on that. I know that I don't know if it was the New York Times, but you know it has been something people have explored. But you know it has been something people have explored. We just I just also know it kind of intuitively because we'll hear about students like what's happening with that kid? You know he's working at CVS now. You know it's like. I mean they're obviously there are success stories, but you know we want to try to get more of the college graduates. And what I do like about what's happening in the DOE now is that they are kind of pushing. It's not all college talk now. They're at least kind of talking about a little bit more vocational, different avenues of careers.
Peter Carucci Host
18:23
And there's a need there vocational different avenues of careers and there's a need there. So yeah, by DOE you mean the New York City Department of Education right, yes, yeah, sorry that was it? Yeah, that's okay.
Joe Geno Guest
18:31
Yeah, that's New York City teacher talk.
Peter Carucci Host
18:36
And do you think that I know there's a chapter in your book on discipline. Do you feel that maybe, like you, have the strength of that kind of discipline to bring that kind of daily dedication in this environment to be able to see it through? Or is it more, you had to learn the hard way and now, after that survival mode and then striving, do you feel like you've been striving or you've been thriving for that discipline?
Joe Geno Guest
19:03
I've been thriving because I realize that I'm working on a. I feel like I'm working on a different level now, especially in the last four years, and this book really kind of represents that rebirth in me, because this book was really written during COVID and COVID you know you hear how COVID made some people worse, but it really made me better in terms of I totally kind of turned around my priorities. You know, I was like 235 pounds and I dropped 35 pounds and I really dedicated myself to writing this and I still do that. You know I am have a pretty good physical exercise regimen and I'm very uh, um, I have a lot like a routine I follow and so I bring that into the classroom.
20:02
Like they see it, like they talk about like, um, hey, how's your sleeping habits? My coaches just like to talk about that. How do you guys sleep? And like well, I got up at 430, like I do every day Like 430, what are you talking about? So, like what I've learned as a parent as well, it's not just what you tell them, it's the example that you show in how you go about your daily uh, activities, you know, and habits. So I think they see that in me. Um. So I don't get a lot of um students who say, like you know, let's just chill today because I got the energy and I, you know, they just they. I said I set a certain regimen that they're used to. So I think one good indication if you're, if you're doing things right as a teacher, if a student walks in and they say what are we doing today? Because then their assumption is, as you know, you've set that precedent, like when you walk in here you're going to do something from the time you get in here to the time you leave.
Jamie Serino Host
21:10
We're not chilling in here or you're going to do something. From the time you get in here to the time you leave, we're not chilling. That's great. So can you talk a little bit about like what you've seen over 26 years, especially with like screens and attention span, and like that I mean just 26 years. You know like so and you've been dealing with kids around the same age, so you've been seeing this sort of like yeah.
21:35
So can you talk a little bit about that, because obviously we know there's an issue here and so what have you seen and what are your thoughts on that?
Joe Geno Guest
21:58
always an issue um, but in the early days they had less distractions um.
Peter Carucci Host
22:02
So when I started in 1999, I'm not a lot of kids had cell phones. No, yeah, dangers back then.
Joe Geno Guest
22:07
Yeah, dangers beeping in the middle of the class maybe pcs or something, but so I I noticed, like a literature study, we did a lot of classics. It was virtually all classics. And, um, there are books that I wouldn't think to teach today. Uh is, and maybe some of it is theme-based, but maybe some of it is complexity of reading based or like, uh, they're, so maybe today they're so kind of departed from uh, for instance, shakespeare. Shakespeare used to be a standard Every year. We taught Shakespeare. Now don't teach Shakespeare. I have taught it in the recent past but I had some kids say who is Shakespeare? So that would be blasphemy. If that was 1999, that would have been blasphemy for a kid to say who is.
23:10
Shakespeare. That would have been blasphemy for a kid to say who's Shakespeare, but it's interesting because of the backgrounds of the teachers and the students. So what was funny is that when I started there was a lot of Jewish teachers and so everybody had a unit on the Holocaust teaching to, you know, Latino and Black students in the Bronx. Like the importance of the Holocaust, teaching to Latino and Black students in the Bronx, the importance of the Holocaust. I did that. We taught night. People don't do that anymore. I don't think anybody really teaches that. But as far as how?
24:04
the screens have changed things. I think it's harder and harder now for them to even open a book. Honestly, I see them try. They'll open a book and they'll read a page and they can't.
Peter Carucci Host
24:14
It's not everybody Is it like the attention span or just the lack of the skill.
Joe Geno Guest
24:20
I think a little of both. They don't process the words. They'll read the words, and then they don't understand what they read.
Peter Carucci Host
24:30
It's a problem? Do you think this is just me with my educator hat? Do you think that a lot of that starts much earlier, before they get to you in high school?
Joe Geno Guest
24:41
Absolutely.
Peter Carucci Host
24:42
You can say the truth here, it's okay.
Joe Geno Guest
24:45
Yeah, I mean you know, and this is something I struggle with my kids because they're on the screens a lot and we have to try to put parameters on it and encourage reading. I'm still working on that at home, but they're doing pretty good in school. But so, yeah, I mean this. I mean how young are kids today? They have, they have the screen, so it's it's it's difficult with attention span and just the ability to Focus and concentrate. There is a discipline there and what I've been trying to do with my classes is like sell the idea that you need this. Yeah, you need this kind of discipline and you need this skill. Um, and your screens aren't going to help you with this, and I'll tell you what. It's even getting crazier now. I've've just learned recently how to check for that, because you can tell Right.
26:17
And I have to do that now, so that's a new thing, well yeah, it's interesting because you know I was talking about this recently.
Jamie Serino Host
26:28
So you know, back in the day people would be like, oh, why are you making me add and subtract? There's a calculator, I don't need to learn that, you know. And it's less about the learning of that and more about, like, the thought and the process of getting your brain to think like that and to solve these problems. And now people are saying that, even with the writing, like, why do I need to learn that? I'll just use AI, you know. And it's like well, you need that process, you need to learn that process for your brain. So that's yeah. So you're bringing up a whole other thing there. And the other thing that comes to mind is to hear you talking.
27:05
There was this book, I think it's called Deep Work and it might be like 10 years old now, sort of like you know, kind of right in the middle of all this stuff happening and maybe seeing into the future a little bit, that the book is saying that your brain needs a certain amount of time to do what the author was calling deep work. And you, if you just spend your time doing the quick things, then you're going to lose the ability to have that focus, that ability to do that deep work that maybe might take tens of minutes or hours, and that could be like reading a book or it could be like doing research or doing any kind of deep thought, strategic thought. And the author was saying, you know you run the risk of sort of abusing your working memory by not using that enough, your attention span and these parts of your brain, that kind of dive in. And you know so he was getting very biological about it, but it's since that book's been written, 10 years later, the problem, you know, is probably getting worse. It's like related more to your book.
28:09
You know, do you have advice for teachers? You know teachers are dealing with for for teachers. You know teachers are dealing with enough stress and now they're dealing with this attention span issue. And you know, do you talk about that in in in the book and have any advice there?
Joe Geno Guest
28:23
Let's see. Do I address that directly? Um, can't remember exactly, but I well, I, I know just how to you have to adjust to the time. So, um, one of the things I'm doing this year is all my lessons are on Google slides, so they have a audio visual aspect to the lesson. And I'm getting away from last year I posted everything on Google Classroom. They're working on computers and that it was too much because they could just tab, go into another tab, exactly. Yeah, it's a mess. So now, once in a while, I do have computer days where they'll look up something or whatever and I'll do Google Classroom. But now I do the slides where I'm giving them a visual and we're going through it and they're working on book and paper. Yeah, the computers have been, but also trying to encourage, like class discussion, just reading centered and writing centered.
Peter Carucci Host
29:41
Can I ask a really deep pedagogical question in terms of formative assessment? Do you find it's much more difficult now to gauge and assess comprehension, even in that setting, today, in the classroom setting, than it has been in years past, simply because of the lack of attention span, and that you have to do much more now in order to keep them on point so you can actually gauge their assessment during a lesson? Comprehension, I mean during a lesson.
Joe Geno Guest
30:14
Well, I'm thinking back to this particular school I'm at like when I started in 2016 and today, and honestly, actually they might be a little better with being able to write during a period. They've had a lot of practice of you know writing, so I think no, I think they can do like full writing pieces and, you know, what they might struggle in is development, sophistication of language, use of vocabulary. They're pretty good with textual evidence, so overall they seem pretty decent. I mean, there's a variation. I have students who are still learning the language you know, um, but I also have co-teachers that help me to um, you know, provide them with different resources so that they can uh, now you know, navigate through the, the lesson I wonder what that's like.
Peter Carucci Host
31:27
You have a chapter in your book the line between tolerance and intolerance.
Joe Geno Guest
31:34
Having not read your book.
Peter Carucci Host
31:38
it excites me to figure out what is Mr Joseph Gino's. What is that, without ruining the surprise?
Joe Geno Guest
31:57
Actually funny enough. That caught my eye too and I was looking through it and I didn't really I didn't, I didn't even look at it. Good, but I think, oh, I think I think what it was about was I struggled early on with classroom management. Administrators would criticize me as being what's the one guy, oh, he said. I said I had a relaxed approach, so I was kind of the cool teacher.
Peter Carucci Host
32:19
But in reality, if I'm reflecting back on it, I was too tolerant of nonsense and in certain classes it didn't work out well.
Jamie Serino Host
32:40
So that chapter's about classroom management like intolerance versus tolerance and that kind of thing Right.
Joe Geno Guest
32:47
I've never been one a rigid teacher, but I think I've learned to where I want to hold the line with that so that I can still perhaps not hurt my relationship with students but also be able to get what I need to get done. And so and I think that lack of rigidity has actually helped me with my longevity, because I don't take it home with me, I don't there's been times where maybe I haven't been as rigid as I need to be, or I'm not handling this particular student or class the way I need to in the past, and I've gotten the criticism as rigid as I need to be, or I'm not handling this particular student or class the way I need to in the past, uh, and I've gotten the criticism for that, but, um, I uh, I'm, uh, I was able to kind of transform myself and try to learn from it and, um, you know, I think I'm in a good, a good place now, but it took a while for me.
Jamie Serino Host
33:55
Yeah, how does a beginner teacher overcome that? Because I feel like I'm not surprised to hear that you struggle with that. I think, both just being, I think, any beginner teacher, and also you are like a calm, kind of mellow person and you know more, intellectually driven by the material right.
Peter Carucci Host
34:14
So what is?
Joe Geno Guest
34:15
your advice for that beginner. Well, it kind of depends on the person. Well, some teach, some teachers don't struggle with that, like they have a personality as such that they just walk in and command a room. Um, and actually my co-teachers, my co-teachers are in their late 20s, early 30s and I don't think they they they don't have a problem with that because they're they got strong voices, they're very forceful, um, but also they're they're they got strong voices, they're very forceful, but also they're there, they have really they can get relationships with students as well. So it was, it was a particular issue for me Because and that's maybe one of my instinctual reasons why I didn't want to teach high school because I kind of knew, I kind of knew that that was going to be an issue for me. I kind of knew that that was going to be an issue for me. What helped me early on was just learning the structure of a lesson and keeping them busy. That helped maybe curtail a lot of the problems of students acting out or whatever.
35:22
Yeah problems of of students acting out or whatever, yeah, but even even with that, you know, then they would, and then I, you still, you still have to address it as a, as a teacher, yep, and so, uh, that was just a experience for me, like a long experience, to try to see how am I going to deal with different students. And and when you become an experienced enough teacher, you can fit students within a profile, like, oh, I had this student, this kid, right here, this is just like this kid I had five years ago and this is what I did for that kid, you know. So it's interesting to kind of how students fit within a profile.
Peter Carucci Host
36:04
And then you can like, kind of almost scientifically, when you talk about their learning profile, like whatever modalities seem to work with Johnny five years ago, you can bring out and it might work with another student. That's very useful stuff, you know. You know we were talking earlier, before this recording, about a certain large number of young teachers leaving within like five years and I think the strength of a book like yours kind of empowers and sets out like if you had that book or if I had that book 25, 30 years ago we would be like all right, you know, because you're even getting into retirement and when to retire.
36:54
And like you know myths about teaching that look, if that's what you really think happens, it's not going to happen. Like my mother was a Catholic school principal and she needed a substitute teacher and so I went in to substitute teach her seventh grade class for like a week something I will never do again. And it taught me so much in those like five school days that I never wanted to, you know, ever encounter seventh grade class again. You know, because back then, you know, we didn't know what we were going to. You know we didn't know what we're going to do with our lives. You know Now, if I had your book as a young teacher, are there things in there that I can find value in that would help me?
Joe Geno Guest
37:49
would help me. That's uh, you're asking that, yeah, yes, um, yeah, absolutely. Um. I think I start off with talking about success and how a teacher is a successful position, um, just to begin with, but then there is a process in which you have to acquire, like, a greater success. So the job itself is noble, but then you have to learn how to be effective in it, and then, I think part of that, if you want to last as a teacher, it's all about your attitude and your how you approach, because how you approach different situations. So there are, you know, many challenges, like I was saying, like things that make you feel small or ineffective are ineffective, um, but you can overcome that, um, and then I'll try to.
Peter Carucci Host
38:51
Uh, you know, experience makes you better basically, you know, I was with you, for I mean, I spent basically a quarter of my life probably with you in that environment and, to your point, everything would be going great and things are okay. And then all of a sudden New York State says we're going to bring in this new evaluation system, and then New York State embraces the Common Core curriculum, so all these things that have been going well. Now you have to redo all of the curriculum and spend all these hours regenerating this, and then new teachers have to get a new sort of you know, new classes every year and update their certification requirements and then all of a sudden, this rubric will change and this can't happen. Top-down structure. I know on a teacher who's literally with the salt of the earth in the classroom trying to elevate, in your case, some of the poorest kids in the united states and the world and trying to help them out, and all of a sudden you have this thing come down on you and you have to you know respond immediately.
Joe Geno Guest
40:01
How do you get into that? I get into that especially, and this really came with like the Bloomberg era of kind of teacher accountability and this new word that we kept hearing called the four letter word in education. It's called data data. We never heard data before, but now all of a sudden we were hearing data and they were using it as in a kind of business model to hold teachers accountable. And the assumption was, if you were in a school with, say, 50% graduation rate, there's no way that you have a school full of good teachers, because if you had a school full of good teachers then you wouldn't have a 50% graduation rate. So they tried to put it all on the teachers.
40:50
They did different things to kind of attack us. There was a bunch of closures and kind of shrinking schools down. I re-interviewed for my job twice, which was funny because you know you'd meet the principal, and then they introduced themselves to you and I was like I already know who you are, you know. But so it was kind of it was a strange era in education because before that we were told we were given a lot of positive feedback by administration. We were encouraged, we felt good about going to school and then, when this new era of teacher accountability came in, we were made to feel bad about our jobs. We were feeling attacked and um, and you could tell the the fakery of it all. Because how you use data, I mean, what's the? What's the mark twain quote? There's lies, damn lies, and statistics, uh, and that's what they were using it. They're using the data against us. So you know they would pat themselves on the back if they had an increased graduation rate. But nobody ever looked into, nobody on the outside ever looked into. How did you get those numbers? How did you get those students to pass the test or get those credits? You know, as far as the mayor and upper administration was concerned, it was all about we got better numbers, we're doing better, the system's better, but us those of us in the system understood that it was manipulated, it wasn't real. And having gone through all that, I really appreciate now being in the system because we're not really being attacked like that.
43:03
My school is in pretty good standing. It's in good standing, uh, so there's no threat of closure. We're not getting. We don't have quality review. Like do we have quality reviews? I remember like we used to have quality reviews where an outside administrator were coming to school and it was, like you know, the janitors were cleaning the lockers. That they didn't do all year, you know, like it was just a so like a fake, like show that was to be put on Right and and we had to get a unit plan or something that we never did. But they want to see it and blah, blah, blah, and so we don't get a lot of that anymore which feels good, and so we don't get a lot of that anymore which feels good. It's just kind of.
Peter Carucci Host
43:54
I guess there's less of a top-down push, even though this current administration does have some Bloomberg people, but they're not pushing like they used to. That gives you a little more autonomy in the classroom, a little more control over your own environment. Do you feel more capable of success that way?
Joe Geno Guest
44:04
I do, yes, but there is some push for um, like they are introducing new curriculum, like I guess the one this year is the math curriculum, where they're kind of giving like a universal curriculum which goes against their old message of differentiating lessons to different students. Now apparently they want everybody teaching the same curriculum. And that was one of my complaints with gathering data for teachers, because there's a variability in the students you have. Like you're going to compare a teacher of um, like an ap class, to a self-contained special ed class or you're gonna compare a college level um, you know honors class, to someone who's teaching an esl class, like there's those, those students have completely different skills and needs. Yeah, and see what they do, jamie is they have what they call a Mosul, which is they they rate teachers based on the state standardized tests.
45:19
And the original idea was to use like, say, my students take an English regents, say state regents, see what they do on the test and then that's part of my score In addition to the observations I get from the principal. But now they've kind of general there's. There's different ways to do it, but now our school, we generalize it it. So basically, all tests are the teachers are scored by all tests, by all students, because you can't really go by. Uh, just like a particular test, like what do you do for an art teacher? There's no state art test. There's no, you know, gym art, gym state test. So right, it's all very it's difficult to measure. Like I compare to say you could go into a car dealership and you can find out who the best salesman is Easy. Who sold the most cars or real estate, right, who sold the most houses, you can tell who the best is. But in education it's not so easy because you're dealing with different populations and the measurements are like how they do on the test is not always like a decent marker.
Jamie Serino Host
46:34
Yeah, and I think you know testing becomes a huge topic because you brought up differentiation and we have talked a little bit about culture and you know the makeup of the students in the Bronx and so could you talk a little bit about that. That, how, how you, how your school, you know, needs to sort of focus on that population and you know it does sound like it's it's difficult putting it on this sort of national average and there's a lot of literature out there about how the testing ends up being. You know it skews towards the predominant culture in the country, right, the testing itself, and I don't know if the curriculum does so. If you could talk a little bit about that because it's so pronounced. I think you know what the culture is there at your school.
Joe Geno Guest
47:24
Yeah, I mean the demographic makeup of my school. I'm in the South Bronx it's about maybe 60% to 70% Latino, 20% plus percent African-American or Caribbean. We have a good amount of students from Africa, like first generation African immigrants and then a few Asians, but really you have no Caucasian population and you know this is something that we've always struggled with in the education field the achievement gap between the different demographic groups. Well, I mean, I just focus on what my students need. It's interesting when I taught upstate I had a virtually 100% Regents passing score, but I don't give myself a lot of credit for that because it felt like they had the skills when they walked in. So I mean, as a city teacher, you have to because the students are maybe behind. You have to work a little harder to try to get them up to where they need to be.
Jamie Serino Host
48:49
Yeah.
Joe Geno Guest
48:56
It's not easy. But you realize they're totally capable, they can achieve. But you understand also, when they walk into my room they're 18 years old, so they've lived a whole childhood. So I understand. As a 12th grade teacher I got 10 months to get them to get better. But I'm not a miracle worker either and there's things that happen in their life where you're not going to get a lot out of them.
49:32
I've had students whose parents died or they're going through a lot of stuff or they're living in a shelter. My motto has always been you do the best with what you have in terms of resources, in terms of what you're able to do in that timeframe. But I work off the assumption that they're fully capable, can get them to where they, for the most part where they want to. For me it's for graduation and virtually all of them get accepted to some college. So I want to make sure they're not taking 12th grade off and they're really kind of working, because some of them like.
50:24
One of the issues in my school is that we're a trimester school and that means that students can get three credits a year and they only need eight credits to graduate. So if they've passed all their classes, they walk into my classroom with nine english credits like they don't need my class, and so again I gotta make this argument to them look, I know you don't necessarily need the credit, but you can use it for an elective. Maybe you need an elective and you can't take a year off and expect to go on a college campus and like do well, you know, yeah, so that's my kind of pitch.
Jamie Serino Host
51:08
Yeah Well, you said earlier that you were selling something and it is funny, and so I do see how initially, you would have resisted that, because it's not in your nature to go and sell something. If you want it, you want it. But then you became a little bit of a salesperson for.
Joe Geno Guest
51:27
English that was another part of my problem and maybe with the management piece and even helping students, progress is like. I do believe I still kind of hold on to this idea that, um, you can't give somebody an education. You all you can do is offer it to them, and so it's a two way street. They have to accept it and they have to move forward with it. They have to have their own motivation. Now I've seen the extreme with this, like old school teachers who I've walked by their classroom and they're just like especially upstate. These are like conservative guys and they be like yo, this kid gets a 64 and I'm giving them a 64 on the report card, that's it. And I've walked by some of their classrooms and they'll be teaching like and the kids are like laid out on the desk and these guys don't care because their whole attitude is right. I'm giving you an education, right, take it. Take it. If not, you know right well, you know it's.
Jamie Serino Host
52:35
You know, as you're talking about that, you know, part of me wants to say all right, yeah, like lead a horse to water, kind of thing. But then I also think about adults at. You know, certain adults would be so thankful of a teacher that drew them in. They weren't interested, and that teacher got them interested. Because you're so young, you know, and even at like 17, 18, you think you know everything right, and maybe you think you don't need it and this and that right. And so, yeah, you could take that attitude like all right, that person's making that decision, but they're so young to make that decision, you know. And so I think it is nice your attitude of like you know you're offering it but you're doing a little bit of selling, you know, and you're trying to draw them in. And maybe you'd have students who are like I'm so glad Mr Gino did that because I became interested. That's when I became interested, you know. So I think that's really nice.
Joe Geno Guest
53:32
I think I raised a philosophical question with teachers and it was centered around do I give them a pencil or not when they come in? That's great.
53:44
This gets to a deep philosophical question, because if you give them the pencil, then they become conditioned to ask for the pencil, and then they come and they don't have a pencil. Or I just not give them a pencil, but then what happens? They don't do any work, yeah, and so that's like so I think I'm somewhere in between Like I give them the pencil but I let them know with a kind of provision like this is not happening tomorrow, yeah, yeah, that's really funny.
Jamie Serino Host
54:18
You are reminding me specifically of a teacher who would not give the pencil, but what he would do is he would say listen, so the corridors. This was junior high and there was A wing, b wing, c wing and some of the other corridors had names, and he was like I'm not giving you a pencil, but if you go to B wing, people always drop their pencils in B wing, just walk and get a pencil from the floor. They'd run out and they'd come back with the pencil.
Peter Carucci Host
54:45
It's really funny.
Jamie Serino Host
54:47
It's really funny.
Peter Carucci Host
54:48
I had the privilege of working with Joe as a colleague and also in an administrative capacity and having been probably in his classroom 1999, all the way through like 2012 or 15, whatever, 2014 or 15, whatever- 12, 14 or 15.
55:10
And seeing Joe as a teacher, both in these stages of like what do I do now?
55:18
I was in Borders Bookstore yesterday and now I'm in a classroom and what the heck is going on and kids are like punching each other and his mind being blown.
55:30
And then also seeing him teach like uh the suny, all the university of albany college courses and like draft curricula and like take on this leadership role and it's, it's interesting, as I got to see it before he was a teacher, his early, early stage, and in every stage, except for the last, maybe eight to ten years, you know, or seven years, whatever it's been. And it's amazing because I can't wait to read this book, joe, because it's like this culmination of like what you've learned and, honestly, how you've become successful. You know it's not an easy journey, but I'm fascinated because you have a chapter in this book about when to know to retire and you seem like you're at a point right now where you've had to learn the hard way sink or swim and now you were striving and now you're thriving and why not keep it going? Is there a point when you know you're done? Well, I'm kind of excited.
Joe Geno Guest
56:44
I'm excited about that potential new chapter. I don't chapter 30 years will be enough, I think, even though I maybe I will be at my best at that time. But I can. And what I learned from covid when I had a lot of time to myself, like wow, wow, I could do. I was getting into woodworking, I was exercising writing books Like I think it's important that when you do retire like you're not sitting on a couch, you are. Even though you're out and don't have a job, you still have to work at something. You still have to be involved in community, at something you still have to be involved in community. So I think I see myself doing maybe a few different part-time type things and I feel like I'll be more motivated than ever. I'm definitely not going to be lazy, um, it's just that I'll take a new direction because, um, you know, 30 years long enough and man no, how do you know when to retire is my question, because you haven't been there 30 years or or in your case right yeah
58:08
I mean too, no, when I, in 55, I'll have 30 years and I'll be able to retire with a full pension, um, so like, financially, I'm gonna be great, um, my, but the thing is my wife will still be working for like another five years, um, and my kids will just be starting high school.
58:30
So there'll be a like a stay at home dad aspect to this. But I just see a lot of benefits to retiring in terms of deepening my relationships with others, friends that I. You know school takes up so much of my time. Like, my commute is crazy I. I leave the house at 6 30 and I get home at 5 36. So I'm basically going about 12 hours a day with the, with the commute and everything, and, um, I just think about all the things I can do with that time, um, and like I want to do out of state hunts and stuff like that. I can't do that with my schedule now. I actually have they actually gave us seven vacation days, so I actually can do that for one week, but um, uh, I'm looking forward to doing different things, recreating myself.
Peter Carucci Host
59:37
You have a chapter in your book called the Myth of Retirement. Why is it a myth? Is it because, like you're saying, you can't just shut off? You've got to continually keep learning? Is that what you mean by that?
Joe Geno Guest
59:48
Yeah, shut off. You got to continually keep learning. Is that what you mean by that? Yeah, I mean I think people build it up in their minds as retirement is something where you can just sit around, you don't have to do anything, you're free from responsibility, but you have to be. There's a danger there, because you can uh, I don't get lazy, but you can get complacent, you can lose purpose. That, I mean, that's the big part is like you still have to find purpose. And I think I've seen, I've talked to some people that have retired recently and they struggle with with that. Like all right, you're out of the building, but what group are you a part of now? And, okay, you're not doing a lot, but what are you doing? You've got to do something. You can't just sit around and you have to. You know you held a certain position, a certain degree of respect, but now you're retired you don't hold a position. So I mean, I think maybe people struggle with their identity, you know, like in the retirement.
Peter Carucci Host
01:00:54
You know, out of 227 teachers, 18 guidance counselors. I think when a lot of them would retire, I'd say a good one out of every four of them would come back to teach what we call the F status in New York City one class, two classes, wow. That same thing. Yeah, that's really interesting.
Jamie Serino Host
01:01:14
Yeah, well, you know one of the unique things, I think, with teachers and you get this with police officers, firefighters you're retiring but you're still pretty young. You know and I think that's a key thing, joe, that you're going through and you brought up identity and and that's really important too A lot of adults don't realize that you still go through shifts in identity as an adult. Everyone always thinks, oh, the whole identity thing happens as a kid and then you have your identity and you're off, but you keep going through shifts as an adult. They just, you know, may not be as quick as a kid, and so one of those is, you know, this sort of retirement and finding purpose later in life as you move, you know, from a career into something else, and you are young enough to actually have a second career if you want or just do a few little things, and you're someone who right, so you're working on a craft and if you're doing woodwork, that's a craft. You know that's something you can continually get better at. And so this is all great advice, a great, I think, conversation, and maybe to sort of start to transition to, to ending, to ending the episode. You know when, when you look at, like police officers, firefighters, like some of them are retiring in their forties, you know, and that's then you have all this time, right? So? So what do you do? So I think the I think you're bringing up a great topic there.
01:02:37
So, as we, as we move toward concluding, you know, is there anything else that you would? You would add, you know, cause I think, just your nature, you, you, you talked about rigidity and you don't have rigidity. You know, I've never known you to have that you go with the flow kind of person. But you talked a little bit also that you have a competitive nature. So you did want to succeed. So you went in there. You got dropped in there like pizza, your borders, books one day there and you're in the classroom another day and you're struggling, but you're going to win, you're going to figure that out right, and you did. But it wasn't through rigidity, it was through, I think, your flexible mindset. And 26 years later you're not burnt out. So any sort of last-minute advice, anything else from the book, anything else that you would say to teachers?
Joe Geno Guest
01:03:32
Yeah else about you know from the book anything else that you would say to teachers? Yeah, um, well, I think one thing is I'm gonna end up doing 30 years in a profession I never intended to be a part of. Yeah, it speaks against this whole idea of like doing what you love, because, well, maybe what you love you're not really.
01:04:00
Maybe it's not what you think it is in the first place and you know I'm happy to have, you know, got into this profession. It wasn't my, the classroom was my natural environment, but maybe not this level, but it was fine, like I worked with a lot of good people, including the students. I got a lot of great students and teachers and over the years, you know, so the relationships were good. I thought my work was noble. I need this idea of giving.
01:04:36
So I just read a book by this guy, scott Galloway, who was an NYU professor of finance, and he had a message of like maybe people are too focused on following their passion, doing what they love, and and maybe they should really work on what they're good at, you know, and that a love will come later. Right, if you're like especially good at something, um and uh, so um, that's one thing in terms of like, choosing a career. But I'd like to finish, uh, just with a poem. I wrote a poem in this book, if I might, and the poem not ironically is called Lesson Learned. The book, the podcast, we're bringing it up, there's so much synergy.
Jamie Serino Host
01:05:31
All right, let's see.
Joe Geno Guest
01:05:33
Here's a poem called Lesson Learned. In all the lessons I taught, a lesson was learned. It is a lesson that can't be given, only offered and received. The list of tasks endlessly go on. We are all awaiting that final bell to be rung and much must be done. We are born with an assignment to maximize human potential, to build relationships, to prepare for the future, and in that preparation a lot can be practiced, but little can be predicted.
01:06:06
The lesson taught me how to be a better parent, made me understand child psychology, where to place my expectations, when to scold, when to encourage, when to show pride, how to build somebody up, how to leave them to their devices. See the application, if the lesson was learned. The lesson taught me the meaning of wealth and something greater than wealth. Time, life being a series of continual moments, never to return, you savor them the most when you feel their absence. When you close that classroom door for the final time, like you're closing the door on 30 years of your life, the lesson continues, not knowing what was learned. Until some test came, with no paper or pen to contend with, only concepts and ideas that you had to think on your feet. You learn. The lesson wasn't about how to think to answer a question. It was about how to think answer a question. It was about how to think. It's the only place.
Jamie Serino Host
01:07:14
It's only from that place that you may take your seat and begin. That's it. That's fantastic, thank you for having me. Yeah, thanks, joe, this was great. So the book lesson learn, joe gino, it's coming out soon and you can like get it on amazon, you can like, where else can you? Like, yeah, I'm sure it's going to be on there, uh, by thanksgiving, okay, yeah, yeah, all right excellent 24, nice all right congratulations on writing it and I look forward to reading it, and I appreciate you joining us and teaching us all those lessons.
Peter Carucci Host
01:07:56
All right, thank you. The lessons are somewhere.
Jamie Serino Host
01:08:00
Joey, Thanks for being here, guys, Thanks, All right, Until next time. Thank you everybody for joining us. We'll see you next time.